Carrie Coon and Cynthia Nixon on the power dynamics of their The Gilded Age characters

As the fourth season of The Gilded Age airs on HBO Max on Mondays, the cast sat down ahead of the launch of the new season to discuss clothing, architecture and power dynamics within the cast and show.

Attending the press conference are Denée Benton, who is Peggy Scott, Louisa Jacobson who plays Marian Brook. Harry Richardson who is Larry Russell. Ben Ahlers as Jack Trotter. Plus Blake Ritson as Oscar Van Rhijn, Kelley Curran as Enid Winterton, Carrie Coon as Ms. Bertha Russell, Morgan Spector as Mr. George Russell, Cynthia Nixon who's Mrs. Ada Forte,Audra McDonald as Dorothy Scott. And last but not least, Taissa Farmiga as Gladys Vere, Duchess of Buckingham. 

Carrie, last season we witnessed sort of like the aftermath of Bertha's determination to set up the best future for her daughter. Can you speak a little bit about what those implications are of that decision and how that might impact not only Gladys' marriage and family life, but yours as well? 

Carrie Coon: I was right, I'm not ashamed of it. George needs to get his act together. George is living a very unexamined life right now. He's really going through it and he hasn't quite metabolized what has happened to him, and therefore he cannot communicate it to me. So, I expect that time heals all wounds, and that just proves to be not true this year. It's going to take a lot more work than just time. But Gladys is doing great, and Bertha feels vindicated about that. 

Morgan, would you like to rebut that? 

Morgan Spector: Do I get a rebuttal? No, I mean, I think, you know, I don't want to seem too diplomatic
here, but I do think George and Bertha are kind of both right. I mean, I think the thing Bertha fails to see is the influence of her own ambition and sort of desire, lust for power. Yes, she's broadly vindicated by the fact that Gladys and the Duke's relationship seems to have sort of flowered in a nice way. But I also think, you know, that scene on the boat, when they first leave and he's like, all right, time to just do sex now. I feel like that was something you just delivered your daughter into and I don't know, maybe that wasn't so nice. 

Carrie Coon: I think the 1800s delivered my daughter into that. 

Even though we're pre-psychology it might do some things to a person's brain. I mean, how do you think that that might affect his business decisions? 

Morgan Spector: I think it's a total life reset for George. His relationship with Bertha has, if not collapsed, at least fallen on hard times. I think, you know, he's been nearly killed and I think it's caused him to, and he's also failed his daughter catastrophically. I mean for George, the relationship with Gladys, the relationship with Bertha - not so much the relationship with Larry - are just sort of central to his concept of himself as like a good human being. And I think both of those things, he's really failed in both of these areas, and his capacity to compartmentalize and be business-ruthless, but kind and loving father at home, that's all sort of out the window. Now he's got tofigure out how he can think of himself as a decent person and what his principles really are going forward. I think that's all at play in this season. 

Harry, do you think that Larry aspires to be like his father in any sort of way, or do you see him as trying to really forge his own path? 

Harry Richardson: Why wouldn't you want to be a bit like Railroad Daddy, right? I think he's witnessing the problems that are coming for his father and for both his parents with all of that power and energy that they cycle in the centre of. He's facing responsibility of the shoulders he stands on this year, and I think that's really interesting to see what problems that brings up for him. But yeah, he's really, I think he's adopting more of his parents this year than ever and realizing that that comes with a price and complication. 

Taissa Farmiga: I think it's literally just as Harry was saying, I think this season we are sort of adapting our parents' principles more so than ever and for the first time Gladys is becoming a woman who's commanding authority and respect including from her mother, and I think it's beautiful that they're starting to see eye to eye and a mutual respect is growing and I think, yes, obviously becoming a mother would open her eyes to a completely different aspect that Gladys could never think about before, because she was a child before she had a child. And it's nice, I think, to see how the relationship has evolved from, you know, Gladys was a shielded, naive adolescent to someone who understands her mother and understands the choices she is making. And she can now look her in the eye and say, I see you, and I agree, or I disagree with you. I think there's respect there, and it's beautiful to have that in a mother-daughter relationship. Working with Carrie has always been just, whatever. I compliment her in every effing interview I do, but truly, this relationship has changed so much from season one and playing such a beautifully changing mother-daughter dynamic. It's been incredible with this partner. 

You all wear these elaborate costumes on the show, I've been watching this since season one, and there's a great meme, Carrie, where you were going to the bathroom and it was like you had to take all this stuff off -  how long does it take to put this, costume designers to put this stuff on, and if you have to use the restroom, I mean does it take an hour to get out of this thing to like do a take?

Carrie Coon: I will say that our teams are incredible. My makeup, the makeup on the show is quite minimal. It's very deft. So, I don't spend a lot of time in the makeup chair. The woman, Christine Harlan, who does my wig has been putting wigs on my head for about a decade, because she's been on every job in New York I've ever worked. So, she can bang my wig on really quickly. And my dresser, Amber, can get me dressed in a dress in 10 minutes or less.  It is down to science. And yeah, going to the bathroom backwards is a hack I like to suggest for any woman wearing a voluminous gown with things sticking out the back of it because you don't want to have a dip. 

Louisa Jacobson: I wear boxer briefs underneath, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of layers going on. You have got to keep it breezy.

Audra, Dorothy Scott, has always been this very supportive mother to Peggy. I think you really see that over the course of the seasons. But I'm wondering if, you know, do you think that they really genuinely always see eye to eye? Are there moments where their relationship might be tested as mother-daughter? 

Audra McDonald: I think in the beginning, in season one, you saw it a little bit because Dorothy was trying so hard to keep her family together, bring her family back together, because her family was estranged. Peggy and her father were very much estranged, and we obviously didn't have the full picture of what had happened, and as season one unrolled, we learned all that. But I think Dorothy's, when you're looking for your hyper motivation, the super motivation for your character, for Dorothy, it's about this girl, which in a way, this woman, Peggy, which also sort of represents, we would say for African Americans, especially during that time, a lot of people were being told, "Look, now when you're out there in the world, you're representing all of us. You're representing us all, whether you want to or not, that's how we're being seen. Therefore, we have to present ourselves as our best, we have to protect each other, and we have to support and raise each other up." And so, everything that Dorothy has is being poured into Peggy at every single moment. So now that Peggy is starting to thrive and starting to really blossom and come into her own, I think maybe what will start to happen is that Dorothy will have to start to sort of realize that perhaps she can't just be fighting Peggy's battles anymore, you know, that she's got to figure out who she is a little bit. 

This is a show that's about impossible choices that people have to make and have had to make over centuries. Obviously, it is interesting watching it because you feel like, "wow, actually not that much has changed." Like what you were saying just now about back in that time, maybe they were looking at the, you know, black upper class and saying, "when you're out there, you're representing all of us." Like we still hear that today. Denée, I want to ask you about Peggy's journey to becoming a truly independent woman. Obviously, she has romance and she has all these other, you know, friendships and amazing elements of her life. But I really love watching her career journey. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to what that feels like, sort of portraying a woman of that time being an independent career woman in a way. 

Denée Benton: Yeah, it's cool. Peggy is like, she's a trailblazer in the sense that she doesn't have a lot of people to model her dreams off of, which I love, like, a class of professional working woman wasn't something that really existed widespread at that time. You were either working class or aristocracy. I like to joke that Peggy is the Miranda of our show. She's like, career woman forward, the men can get in where they fit in, and I do think that this season seeing her attempt to really balance love and work becomes this really modern struggle that I think the audiences will relate to, and her having gone through so much season one to get this. She's literally sacrificed blood, sweat, and tears. And so, to see her be so ravenous for what she wants is kind of radical in its own way. It's radical today, but it was extremely radical then, and sort of be in her like Bertha of Brooklyn bag of, "I see a vision and I'm sorry, I can't really move it for you. I did a lot for this." And I think getting to represent that kind of leading lady archetype, especially as a story that hasn't been told on mainstream television yet has been like the honor of my career. And this season, it feels like it really blossoms. She's sort of undeniable in her Renaissance Woman era, which is exciting. 

I'm wondering, Louisa, if you can speak a little bit to what your sort of version of that is similar in a question, similar question to what I asked Denée, but for your character. 

Louisa Jacobson: Yeah, definitely Denée, or Peggy, is Marian's immediate example of a woman who is choosing to take her life in her own hands and to do something other than just be a wife and a mother. And at that time, I know now it feels like a little bit like, yeah, big deal. But it was such a big deal then, especially for Peggy and, I think... I think Marian looks up to Peggy in a lot of ways. She was the first friend that she had coming to New York. So that was the example that she had. And she's also seeing Gladys getting married off, you know, sort of against her will. She witnesses that in season three. And I think it's like, you know how you look around you. I feel this as the youngest sibling in my family, or whatever, you look around and you see how people are living their lives, and you say, "I want to do that, but I don't want to do that, and I don't want to be a pawn in society. I want to have a purpose in my life and I want to be of service." And I think Marian, you'll see in the later episodes where she's working, but, I think work is very important to her, specifically work in the service, in social work. And it's kind of cool to see a character in this show... I mean, Ada kind of is representing that trend towards social work in the Progressive Era, but I think Marian is also now like leading that charge, which is very cool. And yeah, I just think, just to reiterate, that the difference I think for me, for this season is that like Denée's acting, like Peggy's struggle is a modern one. Marian's struggle is a period struggle. It's like particularly of its time. And I think you have to watch it without a 2026 lens, and you have to remember that these people were living in 1886. The stakes were so high and so different and destitution was real. 

Does anyone else in the cast feels that their character's struggle or arc sort of aligns itself maybe more with our modern understanding of maybe gender and social and political relations or if, you know, you feel like Louisa, your character's struggle, is particularly rooted in the time period that the show is set in? 

Blake Ritson: I suppose playing Oscar, who is a gay character, in a time when there were huge legal and social ramifications to being found out to be gay, you could say that this is kind of locked in its periodness and that the stakes were much higher then, but I've been really overwhelmed by how people have reacted to the kind of effectively the coming-out scene in season three. I think it's worth remembering that "The Gilded Age" is a show that comes out in, I think, over 60 countries, is it? And I think there are still many, many cultures, contexts, where coming out is not an easy thing. It is painful, it's illegal in some countries, obviously, to this day. So, it really, you know, is pertinent. And it's lovely seeing it through this kind of refracted prism of "The Gilded Age" and knowing that there are kinds of legal repercussions. I thought it was interesting they seeded the meeting with Oscar Wilde earlier, because obviously, you know, in 1895 he is imprisoned for being gay. So, there was a very real threat. But it persists to this day. 

Cynthia, unfortunately, Christine Baranski is not here right now, so your sparring partner isn't here. 

Cynthia Nixon: I thought about bringing a hand puppet, I really did. 

We've witnessed this role reversal, almost, happening between season three and now season four. And obviously, you know, there are so many fun moments where there's duos in the cast who can spar back and forth. But I kind of feel like Ada and Mrs. Van Rhijn take the cake on that. But I don't know, even though Christina's not here with us, can you speak a little bit about developing that chemistry in the role reversal? 

Cynthia Nixon: Well, Christine would say, if she were here, that the way in which these two are sisters and have lived together for so many decades, that they're like a married couple, very much. And Christine has always said, because we've known each other since 1983, where she played my mother - although she was far too young at the time - that we are... She always says that the hardest thing to fake is intimacy, and that she and I were just so lucky that we came ready-made with that. And you know, Ada is, if you had to say, you know Ada is the person with more feeling, right? And Agnes is the person with more authority, and gradually the world has turned upside down, right? And so, one of the delightful and hilarious things that we get to see this season is unhinged Agnes. Agnes no longer has her power base, her money base, and so what are essentially kind of small things grow in importance to the point of mania because the part sort of is a stand-in for the whole. So, for years of having seen Ada, you know, grieving and elated and just a very emotional being, and Agnes, you know, putting the kibosh on that, whatever, to the best of her ability, now we see the unhinged Agnes who, trying, trying, not being rooted in power, and Ada helping but also stepping back a little, also enjoying it a little bit. But being the kind of the... It's just really interesting to see what power does and how power, when given to, you know, a somewhat excitable old girl, which is how I think of her, you know, that she can all of a sudden find this strength and these reserves of composure that you would not have suspected were there in Ada. 

This show is so much about power and what happens when it changes hands and when people's roles evolve over the course of a lifetime while the world is changing, too. So, I wanted to throw it to Ben because your character is obviously experiencing a very big change in his life now after making his own money to the degree that he can now live in his own home and no longer be a part of the servant class. I guess, could you speak a little bit to what you think Jack's biggest challenge is as someone who has now changed rank? 

Ben Ahlers: Yeah, this is a time in American history where you were really starting to see for the first time people being able to elevate beyond their class, really in global history, because we were such a caste sort of aristocratic system and we certainly suffer from that today in various ways. But that's a massive leap, that's, a massive shift, especially for a young man who, as we learned in season one, was an orphan when his mother died in the Peshtigo Fire, and was really living a steady, consistent life with a family of coworkers and stability and a purpose day-to-day. And what I appreciate so much about Jack is that he was never seeking the sort of inherited social desires of power and fame and money. He says, you know, "I saw a problem in front of me, and I tried to solve it." And I think that as an artist, and as, you know, anybody who's pursuing something, that seems to be the truest way to try to pursue something is to find that specific calling on your heart and follow it to its furthest edge. And I think that's what's made people resonate with him so much is that we all, if you listen quietly enough, have that calling. But when he enters into society with all of these, you know, to him, to him this sort of fruitless, often, and sometimes aimless rules around how to behave and how to operate with power. I think he's having to decide for himself how much he wants to play in that space, especially with how much he's already sacrificed to be here. And he's, I think he sees that in order to exist, you oftentimes have to warp yourself to the given playbook. And that's a negotiation that I think all of these characters really, in the end, have to make, is that what are they willing to sacrifice for what they feel is right for them. 

Kelley, Enid, has I think has a very strong understanding of the rules and is really sharp at manipulating them to her will. So, you know, what do you think are her biggest motivations and where does her, you know, like drive to want to elevate her class status come from? 

Kelley Curran: Power. She just wants power. No, I think, you know, what's so amazing about this trajectory is starting in a place where it's sort of, to what Louisa said, I mean, you're really on the brink of desperation. If you're not in this society, you are just getting by. And so that's a very strong motivation for getting into society and being able to take care of yourself. And then as she sort of ascends each season and now, she has the full support of the Van Rhijn family name and this partner who's really her best friend. It's an incredible trajectory. So not only can she feel that kind of, security and support for the first time in her life, but now she can do something with it. And she has a vision and she has taste and she plans. 

Blake Ritson: It's quite a fresh dynamic in the show. I think we see a lot of characters operating in very public forums, where everyone has to behave with impeccable etiquette. That's easy for you to say. But here, we see characters, you know, they spend a lot time lounging around their house and it's lovely. There's no one else watching. They're just, it's just two individuals having this lovely kind of fresh dynamic. It's been very joyful to play it. 

Carrie Coon: Kelley's costumes, I think, are one of the smartest design choices in the show. Because Kasia Walicka Maimone made your costumes so impeccable, and you just see the taste level that Enid has absorbed. It would be very easy to make her gauche in some way. That would be the easy and expected choice in the rival of Bertha. But the fact that your costumes are often, I find, more elevated than mine, and they're just, they're always spot on for the event. I just think that speaks to the level of design in the show.

Kelley Curran: Absolutely. You can tell, I mean, just that she absorbed it, and she knows how to play the role. She's been watching these people her whole adult life and moving among them. And then you also see, you know, she was like your live-in stylist in season one. And it's like, you see her taste sort of evolve through the seasons and she knows when she's performing for old money, she knows when she is performing for new money, and she knows when she's at home with her buddy. So, it's just like, it's incredible. 

Blake Ritson: I think it's essential you look like that because if you're going to be the new taste makers of society. 

Where do you see Oscar and Enid?

Blake Ritson: I think they're the new apex predators of high society. 

Kelley Curran: Yes, I agree. 

Blake Ritson: They're just waiting to bite off the head of anyone who stands in their way. 

Kelley Curran: There's a kind of unstoppable energy which is really exciting, you know? It's like, what are they going to do? They're just live wires. 

Blake Ritson: In episode one, they go downtown to go dancing - again, just to call back earlier - they, we've only seen balls before, everyone is very structured, it's very kind of staid, and suddenly we see these people dancing the mazurka, every take is different, they're improvising, it's spontaneous, and it's a little metaphor for what they're offering up, a much more kind of fun vision of society, and I think it's, you know, we had great fun shooting it. 

Is there an etiquette rule from this time period that you've learned while watching the show that you've actually picked up and incorporated into your real life?

Blake Ritson: Always eat lettuce with a spoon and ice cream with a fork. 

Kelley Curran: I do, do this with soup now. You're supposed to go like this with soup, back to front, and now it's just a habit.

Carrie Coon: My children are going to have medial t's. There's no "button" or "kitten" in my house. 

Blake Ritson: Always have wine at a breakfast party, that's essential. 

Are Bertha and Russell happy? 

Morgan Spector Are you happy, Carrie Coon? 

Carrie Coon: Am I happy? Listen, how much time have you got? I think, I don't know that the question of happiness is one that some women, in particular, because that's the experience I can speak to, or have the luxury of asking. So much of what it means to be a woman in the world is about survival. Of course, Bertha has every advantage in the world, as do I. I live a life of tremendous privilege. And yet, the dance I am doing as a mother and a working mom in a society where both of those things are somehow wrong is not an easy one. And I feel that the erosion we are experiencing in our basic civil rights are going to hit outsider populations first and women also. I mean, the health care crisis in the United States. Like what's happening, women are like bleeding out in parking lots and dying of sepsis. They're trying to take our vote away. Like its survival every single day. And so, I don't know that happiness is, it's a luxurious question. One that I, as a person of privilege, have more time to ask and contemplate and I can afford to go to therapy when I feel like the answer is no. But I feel like a woman like Bertha is like not thinking about that. You know, she's prioritizing like, maybe there's contentment, but somebody like Bertha, it's an unfillable hole. You know, there's nothing that will ever fill that hole. That engine is always running. So, I don't imagine her ever feeling content. So happy, maybe not, but moments of it, like everybody. That's the human condition. Moments of pleasure in the midst of survival. 

You've lived in these characters in this time for this many seasons, what is it about that time that you wish still existed in modern day New York? 

Denée Benton: I think the commitment to beautiful architecture, all of the new de-gentrifying developments are so sad. I'm like, why do we want everything just to look like gray concrete spaceships? Like even the detail in these sconces, it's like someone had to take time to believe in what's divine about human creativity and what's valuable about that in the world. And I wish that we cared more about lasting materials. Versus fast ones. 

Blake Ritson: Handwriting. The handwriting in the show, I love it. It's completely fetishized and they had a calligrapher kind of work out a different font for each character, but you compare, today's is a disgrace, everyone's handwriting. I can't read my parents' handwriting. Yeah, terrible. Mine is beautiful, but I'm a special person. 

Ben Ahlers: Obviously, at this time, society had so many rules that could oftentimes be oppressive, this sort of etiquette conversation, but one of the things that I am envious of my ancestors was a sense of participation within the community. There was a sort of forced citizenshipness because there was no way to just like curl up in your own little basement and watch TV and order in. Our rich couldn't fly off to bunkers in Costa Rica. They had to invest in their community because if they wanted to see the opera, they had to, you know, help fund an opera. So, there was a kind of a locality to the way that we lived because we weren't so easily, globalized and we were so easily dissociated. It was wherever you were, there you were, you know? And I think that we bore a lot of fruit from that time for that reason. 

The power dynamics that exist between each of you are not only kind of essential to the show, essential to your characters, essential to the period, whether it's parents, children, you know, men and women. I'd love to know from each of you what you think power means to each of your characters. 

Morgan Spector: The capacity to exert your will, I think. You know, I think for George, it's pretty straightforward. Like, you either have it or you don't. 

Carrie Coon: Yeah, and legacy. There's something in there about legacy as well. You know, Bertha's trying to solidify her children's place in the world and therefore her grandchildren's place and that they will always occupy that space and have those privileges that they have access to now. 

Taissa Farmiga: Gladys is just on the precipice of discovering power and what that means to her. And I truly respect, earning respect from her peers as earlier from her mother. I think that's, well, one, I think it should be a basic interaction with humans, but gaining the respect of someone really feeds this inner self-confidence and for her, that means that she can live the life and make the decisions she wants. As simple as choosing the dress she wants to wear. You know, when she first went to England, things were decided for her. When she lived in New York, things were decided for her and I think learning to be respected is going to change her future and the path she walks on. 

Harry Richardson: Seeing the problems that power brings up for the Russell parents and, like, how it's negatively affected the family dynamic at times, made Larry quite averse to power for the first few seasons. And I think this year you see him grapple more with; you can't just push that away forever. That's a very real discussion and a very real part of life in society. And he's witnessing the problems that come when power starts to crumble slightly and so that's very confronting for his ethos. 

Cynthia, Ada has gone through such a remarkable transformation, becoming much more confident and independent. How exciting has it been for you to play this new version of her, and is that a message you personally connect with?

Cynthia Nixon: Well, at the end of, I mean, I was just delighted by this character. I was delighted by this world and getting to be Christine's sister and Louisa's aunt. And then at the end of season one, I was sitting there with Michael Engler, watching him film, and he started talking to me about who they were going to cast as my husband next season. And I was, I mean, I could have fallen out of my chair. I mean, I just felt like I knew what instrument I had been assigned in the orchestra. But then they led me to, you know, I was in the string section and then I was given like a drum set. I was like, what's happening? And I couldn't believe it. So yes, as an actor, of course, that's thrilling. But also, I think it's a wonderful thing that, that despite her age that she could fall in love for the first time with someone who loved her back and who chose her. I mean, that was incredible. And I think that that's one of the things that Julian and Sonja and now Davita do so brilliantly is they draw these very particular characters. We really get who everybody is. And we think we know what instrument they're playing, and then the writers take each character to a place that the character would never dream, that the audience would never dream, and we get to see them in these new, very challenging situations with which they have no previous experience, and in the case of Ada, sometimes they're not very good at. So yeah, I think it's wonderful. I think it is really a lesson that we just can never learn enough, that whatever your life is, it's probably going to be very different very soon, in good ways and bad ways. And it's, you can't be reminded of that ever too often. 

The Gilded Age airs weekly on HBO Max on Mondays.